Episode 85 - Establishing and maintaining Australian soccer history's web presence

Download and listen to this episode here. 

This week Paul is joined in hosting duties in the studio by Greg Stock, and remotely by Garry McKenzie.

Paul notes that he received a present from Greg in the mail, which took so long to arrive that Greg ended up in Melbourne before it. Paul wraps up some Football Belongs feedback, including a tribute at Edensor Park for Ivan "Gilligan" Rendulic. Garry discusses trying to figure out whether there was a family connection between Alec Gibb (Socceroo #51) and Angus "Billy" Gibb (Socceroo #51a) - and an explanation of how mistakes like "missing" Socceroos get made, and then corrected. Greg talks about the process of starting the process of rehabilitating the accuracy of OzFootball's National Soccer League records, and the processes involved in making decisions when informed by sources with contradictory information. We also look at the revamped format of the pages, which will include links to match programs and match footage.

Our main discussion this week focuses on Football Australia's relaunch of the historical online pages, and the status of the equivalent state pages - where they exist. We discuss the holes and shortcomings and mistakes of FA's effort, but we also acknowledge that it's a massive step in the right direction, and we look forward to seeing how future improvements, now that the framework is in place. Especially pleasing is that the Hall of Fame has now been updated significantly from its previous semi-derelict state. And how much information is too much? And what's the next step? And how maybe, just maybe, that the existence of an Australian soccer history community means things like this project happen.

But going around the state federation history websites, and while the situation generally shows improvement from previous efforts, there are still several federations with negligible online historical presence. So far have we progressed since we last did a deep dive on this issue all the way back in episode 6? Who's the benchmark now? What resources are being allocated for improvements? What's going on in the background?

In the final segment, it's a Garry McKenzie curated 100 Years Ago Today, where Garry notes that Ipswich clubs were dominating the main Queensland league competition, and the first mention of the Tristram Shield; then to Weston, and the death of a local soccer player known only as "Pearce"; there's also the death of Edwin (Teddy) Aldred, an English footballer who had played for Leeds City's reserves, an had an extended - albeit contested - history of playing soccer in Australia; and we look at the beginnings of women's soccer in Australia, as discussions start in the press about going ahead with such a project.

Episode 84 - A look at the Football Belongs documentary (with Jason Goldsmith)

Download and listen to this episode here.

We're back after a week's break... well, mostly. Ian's decided to take the rest of June off, so Paul is joined in hosting duties by Jason Goldsmith - and we get an update on his and Lucas Gillard's book Be My Guest. We also quickly look at Ange Postecoglou signing up as Celtic manager, and a missing section on Ange's Wikipedia page. We also get way out of the show's wheelhouse by discussing contemporary football broadcast arrangements.

We also look at Walter Pless' obituary for Tasmanian soccer great George “Chopper” Arnott. We give props to Greg Stock for his ongoing OzFootball work. We also note that Tony Wilson and Rob Heath, who are making the Ferenc Puskas in Australia documentary, are still looking for footage and photographs, as well as accepting tax deductible funding support via their Documentary Australia Foundation page.

Our main focus this week is the full length Football Belongs on Optus Sport. We look at the following topics:

• Who is this for? Who is this being addressed to – considering Ange’s comments about trying to force the game through to cultural centre stage, having it on Optus only, means its going to be seen by soccer football fans only - if "Football Belongs", where and how does it belong exactly? And will it reach the Eurosnobs within Optus' reach.
• The beginning and end with John Moriarty.
• The way the documentary resets the narrative of the past 15 years of Australian soccer and its immigrant/ethnic character.
• The breadth and limitations of its diversity - including the lack of almost any non-English language interviews. And no Jews!
• The general (and understandable) paucity of women in this documentary.
• The way the documentary demonstrates that the clubs within these communities are not just football clubs - they are community and social welfare organisations.
• The way that sometimes the use of non-football people (like Mario and Paul Fenech) detracted from the story.
• Craig Foster articulating the point that Australian soccer needs to utilise its demographic and cultural reach to change the very nature of Australian society.
• We also have some talkback callers throughout this segment! Very good point made by Paul Hunt calling in, asking when are going to start looking at stories like this from a football first, rather than ethnicity first perspective.
• The way in which the film ignores places and demographics in Australia where soccer has always belonged.

After the break we have another caller, asking about why the film shirks away from the matter of why communities have walked away from the ethnic soccer club milieu. Paul makes the point though, that the documentary is called "Football Belongs" not "Football Belongs?", and that the attrition of support for senior grade soccer in Australia goes across the entire country, in both recent and more established soccer strongholds.

And finally, 100 Years Ago Today, where there are a lot of articles discussing what sport is appropriate for women to play, but we’ll leave them until next week when we have Garry McKenzie on. We start off in Mackay, where a new local club is being formed; then head over to Bunbury, for an Australian Rules footballer with an unusual nickname; and then do a sort of deep dive into the Queensland state team's tour of New South Wales, where they fare poorly against against some of the local elevens, but do very well against the New South Wales state side; there's also a remembrance of the Victorian state team, and the hope that they would one day assemble a state squad once more, as they did prior to the war. We look at the different media perspectives of the tour, and some match reporting styles that could be deemed quite harsh on players by today's standards; we look at some of the curtain raiser matches played on that tour, and some sweeping changes to the committee overseeing soccer in the Kogarah district; and down south in the Illawarra, we have a no-show team, and a case of very poor hospitality by a host governing body.

Episode 83 - Glorious lockdown shambles

Download and listen to this episode here.

Still doing the show from our respective home bases, and boy oh boy, technical problems! And being caught out saying bad words! And Frank Brunoskevic! And tedious banter! And strange noises in the background! And Ian not speaking clearly into his mic, even at home!

Then catching up with feedback, sort of, because we're a bit discombobulated. Ian's also still stuck in the 1930s, and what's going on with Preston at that time, and the arcane, unclear nature of player transfers, and spelling variations in player names.

(Paul is also distracted by scrolling through Brunoskevic related antics on Twitter during the show)

Tony Persoglia has been trying to update the first four seasons of the national women's soccer league from the 1990s on OzFootball. Paul also relates some correspondence he received from the son of long-serving Victorian referee Jim Fokianos, and the difficulties in trying to track down referee appearances.

Then Paul gets a bit upset at the "Greece" episode of the Football Belongs episode. You can read a version of his issues with that segment here.

After the break, 100 Years Ago Today, we begin in Ipswich, with a multi=sport carnival, including junior soccer as the feature of a Colliery employees day; then to Brisbane, and the story of a landslide and a delayed mail train, and the Queensland state soccer team; an update on said team, which got off at the next stop at Armidale; the beginnings, sort of, women's rugby league in Sydney, and why they might not have chosen soccer instead; and then finally to Melbourne's results.

In the final segment Ian continues with his research into George Macaulay, including the invitations to trial and play with the Victorian state team. It's an insight into the process of being selected; trialling, travel, publicity, equipment, and all necessary arrangements. Ian also discusses a letter written within the Macaulay family, which alludes to a soccer committee meeting taking place in the Macaulay household, and a soccer match to Wonthaggi - what that means for George Macaulay's playing career, and his personal life.

Episode 82 - Remembering Joe O'Connor, Alan Garside, Bill Mahoney, with Greg Werner

Download and listen to this episode here,

We're locked down again, so we're Zooming again. Also Paul got sacked from his job. And his soccer team's out of action. So everything's going great. It's so bad, that Paul's even getting into "the banter". And there's so much of it.

Greg Stock has started adding match program links to his NSL season files on OzFootball.

Ian tries to buy a signed NSL match program, without success, which leads to Paul musing about why people would be offloading their collections, and the nature of people moving on from any code and onto other activities.

Also, Ian's finding out more about Victorian school soccer... also Paul and Ian trying to figure out what the size of Melbourne's player numbers were. This conversation seems to be meandering more than usual. 

Thank goodness that we have Greg Werner on in the second segment to get things straightened up and focused. Greg's here to talk about the recently deceased Matildas' and women's soccer coach Joe O'Connor, and former Socceroos Alan Garside and Bill Mahoney. 

Irishman Joe O'Connor and his wife Pat were at the centre of women's soccer in New South Wales from the 1960s and 1980s, and thus also at the heart of the national team in the formative decade of the Matildas.

(for some other episodes dealing with Australian women's soccer during the 1970s, when O'Connor was coaching them, see episode 56 and episode 76)

Alan Garside was part of a multi-generational connection to the Granville soccer scene. Garside was a leading goal scorer of early 1950s Sydney soccer, with his record putting him on a par with Newcastle striker Reg Date. Garside represented Australia in 'A' and 'B' internationals in the 1950s.

Goalkeeper Bill Mahoney of Newcastle also played 'A' and 'B' internationals for Australia in the 1950s.

Ian asks the question about what the strategy is for recording and discussing the story of these players; Greg suggests that's it's not just the international representatives we need to worry about, but also the large amount of state representatives, from an era when state league and interstate football held a high degree of importance. There's also the question of Australia's many 'B' international games and tour matches, which featured starting lineups that were vastly different from lineups that would have played in full 'A' internationals.

In the final segment, we have 100 Years Ago Today, where we start off in Toowoomba (and Cawdor), where Ian tries to assure us that Queensland isn't just one cultural mass, but rather a state riven with regional feeling; then to Oakey Western Suburbs, and a strange idea of what a not one-sided game looks like, and encouraging the juniors to watch the senior game to be educated; after Paul gets off his soapbox, we visit Boodua who are playing Goombunjee, and a rainbow strip; then to Hobart; then to Adelaide; then to the Melbourne results.

Episode 81 - The ongoing process of making this a Victorian soccer history show

Download and listen to this episode here.

Paul ponders the personal impact of Marxist alienation.

Then the clean up, with the usual suspects, with veiled references to copyright infringement debates. And book launches to look forward to, eventually.

Then to the show proper - and an update to the Geranium story from last week, including Australian Rules historians backsliding into claiming any archival photographs of football teams as belonging to their sport. 

The Footscray Historical Society is looking for volunteers to help digitise parts of its photographic collection. But the members of the FHS are continuing to provide a wealth of treasures for Ian's research into Footscray soccer, but also school soccer - and thus Ian looks into the ongoing matter of senior ethnic backed clubs from Victoria's State League in the 1960s (and thereabouts), creating relationships with extant non-affiliated junior soccer teams. Ian reads out a letter from Greg Daglis, reminiscing about playing for Sunshine Heights Slavia's junior teams in the 1960s and 70s. And some discussion, too, about the gradual erosion of the importance of public school soccer in Melbourne.

During the break we got a phone call from a listener, which confused the crap out of everyone in the studio. Thnaks Greg Werner, for providing some background on Sydney school soccer from the early 20th Century. Then onto Swinburne Tech and its student journal Open Door, and a poignant story about the death of a soccer loving teacher at the school - and clues into the "40 Thieves", British teachers brought to Australia in the 1920s and 30s. What influence did this teacher intake have on Victorian soccer?

Then more research of Ian's (and the folk at the FHS) on the late era of Footscray Thistle - on the vandalism of the clubrooms, the number of club members serving in the war, and what clues this might offer to the end of Thistle.

Then Ian ruminates on British writer Harry Pearson's The Far Corner, a book on cultural aesthetic of football in the north-east of England. This discussion is meant to illustrate the low value we as a society place on the interests of working class and ordinary people, including their sporting interests. Paul mentions how it's a matter of culture - and mass, low culture especially - moves on relentlessly and unapologetically. And an example of how that football across the world is not popular across all levels or strata of society - see Antony Sutton's reminiscences here as an example.

Then 100 Years Ago Today, where we begin in Kalgoorlie publishing an article from Sydney, where someone's rambling about cricket and football, and the rise of Australian Rules as the "modern game", supplanting other older codes; then to Armidale in New South Wales, and an increase in soccer memberships, and a very early morning start to get to Tenterfield by train; then to Geraldton, for the opening of the local season; then down to Midland Junction and Perth; then still in Western Australia, with Katanning, and Sunday recreation rules; back to Perth, and Aussie Rules and soccering the ball; and Melbourne results.

Episode 80 - Roy Hay on John James Liston

Download and listen to this episode here.

It starts with banter.

Then into the West Gate Bridge disaster of 1970, and specifically the death in the disaster of local soccer identity Bill Harburn.

Then onto a quiz question which excludes the usual suspects from answering. But also, where's the history section on the George Cross website? And is there a protest solution?

Paul notes that Greg Stock has been updating NSL season files on OzFootball, but has some suggestions on how they could be further improved.

We also note the latest update to Mark Boric's site. And FNR flags and Paul's mum sewing.

After the break we have Roy Hay on to discuss the strange case of John James "JJ" Liston (and here's something with more soccer content), who in the 1930s and 40s was president of the Australian Rules body the Victorian Football Association, as well as president of the Victorian Amateur Soccer Football Association. We discuss, among other things: 

• Liston's background, and his wide variety of business, social, and sporting interests.
• The declining condition of football - culturally, economically, politically - in the 1930s; and the idea of the 1930s as a sort of "dark age" when it comes to our understanding of history.
• Ruminations on soccer's status as a participation and migrant sport, which had yet to become a localised/native game.
• The squeezing out of Harry Dockerty from the presidency of Victorian soccer.
• Whether Liston was hands on in his leadership of Victorian soccer, or more of a honorary patron.
• The reaction among the various soccer and Australian rules faction to Liston's taking up Victorian soccer's presidency.
• His idea of merging soccer and Australian rules.
• The soccer (and other) trophies named after Liston, which have since disappeared.
• Liston's son John Ernest being parachuted into the Victorian soccer presidency following J.J's death in 1944.

In the final segment, we have a short 100 Years Ago Today, where five clubs are split across two divisions; and across to Adelaide, where stuff is happening; and to Fremantle, where the local Caledonians come across as sore losers.

Episode 79 - Dylan Arvela and Woonona's 2020 championship

Download and listen to this episode here.

Interminable married couple banter. Some news on the Merewether soccer Anzacs honour board. Then Ian follows up on his research on Footscray Thistle player and Victorian representative George Macaulay, which included meeting George's children, and taking scans and photos of Macaulay football memorabilia - including medals and member ticket booklets. We try to figure out where one of the photos with a scoreboard "G.B.P." on it - Paul thinks maybe the Motordrome. Ian tries to sum up what we've learned about Macaulay and the people he played alongside, and how he seemed to be lost to local soccer - and the ways in which the pre-WW2 soccer culture doesn't necessarily follow through to the post-war period. Also, how Melbourne soccer seems afflicted by a lack of depth, and a lack of native-born players to help carry the culture into second and third generations.

After the break we chat with journalist Dylan Arvela, about his book  A Drop in the Ocean: the story of Woonona's Illawarra Premier League championship, (available for purchase via Amazon). which covers the titular club's unexpected 2020 title run. Among the things we discuss are the history of Woonona, and its comparative lack of success; the current power balance within Illawarra football; what football was like under Covid conditions; what's more important, a league title or grand final win; is it a championship or a premiership?; how different clubs value different titles in terms of importance; the nature of the rivalries of Wollongong soccer; a dramatic final day of the league season; and what else Dylan has lined up to write next. 

(also Paul gets to talk about driving around Wollongong's northern suburbs soccer grounds with Travis Faulks).

We finish with a brief edition of 100 Years Ago Today, where finally we have some news of the Melbourne season, and we finish off with the segment's first ever reference to the Northern Territory, with the arrival of the Geranium in Darwin.